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Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:29 pm
by SquareTube
From what I've seen on other threads, the YSL-356 has a reasonably comfortable width (comparable to a Bach 36, rather than most other small bores.)

My question is: how about the bore size of the crook? If it's in the .540 or under range, it could be a nice way to widen a .500 bore slide without goofing up the response/partials too much.

The horns may be hard to get here, but the part shouldn't be a big deal for a tech with an account.

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:03 am
by Matt K
I believe that part is identical to the one for the 446 and 645/646 if I’m remembering right. I can try to look up today. So it would probably be a touch large for a .500 horn.

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:18 am
by Crazy4Tbone86
A wider, slightly-larger bore crook for a .500 bore trombone is something I have been toying around with for several years. Through experimentation, I have discovered that one of the best playing .500 bore crooks for me is the Conn 6H crook, which is on the larger end of that bore spectrum……the crook has a .537 inside diameter. However, it is still slightly too tight for me on a few different horns.

I have installed a .560 bore crook on one of my beat up 6Hs. The wider slide ergonomics were great, but the acoustical results were not good……rather unfocused sound. My latest experiment has not yet come to fruition…..I bought the wide 180-degree bend from the F attachment of a Yamaha YSL-356. The width of the crook is the same as a Bach 36 and the inside bore is .544 inch. I’ll get around to installing it sometime this fall and keep my fingers crossed that the results will be good!

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:09 pm
by SquareTube
Nice thought, Brian! I'll be curious about the results with the 180 bend.

Matt, my ability to navigate the parts website isn't supreme, but the part I found wasn't listed as being used on any other models, which led me to believe it might be what I hoped it was....

Maybe it's time I get a handful of pipes with pitch and bend away...

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:32 pm
by Matt K
Probably faulty memory! There are a lot of "shared" parts on the 356 with the other medium bores but if that's a different one I'd be definitely interested to see if anyone has specs on it.

BTW, M/K drawing has some crooks that may interest you. They aren't as wide as the "wide glide" crooks that DJ had made awhile ago but it's definitely not narrow either. They have the specs listed on their website & Brian right now has mine in his possession if there's any measurements made! Mine is going on a 500/525 slide I'm having made!

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:16 pm
by SquareTube
I've been referencing M/K Drawing fro my own sake, but I didn't see anything significantly wider than 6H/3B. I'm going for 36/88H width. Less than 5mm doesn't seem worth the work of rebuilding the slide.

I was entertained to see rough steps in the slide width chart on here: mostly ~70, ~80, or ~90 (+-) with a few scattered in between, and the teeny tiny ones at 65 and below.

I've been following your Yamaha project with interest.

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:09 am
by bellend
Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:18 am I have installed a .560 bore crook on one of my beat up 6Hs. The wider slide ergonomics were great, but the acoustical results were not good……rather unfocused sound. My latest experiment has not yet come to fruition…..I bought the wide 180-degree bend from the F attachment of a Yamaha YSL-356. The width of the crook is the same as a Bach 36 and the inside bore is .544 inch. I’ll get around to installing it sometime
Being someone who is in the wide neck club this is an issue I have struggled with for years.

I like your idea of trying the f attachment bend as all large bore crooks seem to thow the harmonics and blow out of whack. In fact, I have found that adding more tube length into the crook even at the correct or very similar i.d. still alters things a little . Years ago when I was playing professionally I had Mick Rath make me a custom crook for my King 2B+ that was as near as damm it identical in bore but the width of a Bach 36 and although I used it for many years it never felt quite the same as with the stock crook.

My quest to solve this conundrum eventually led me to the Besson 941 a .500 bore trombone that was designed in conjunction with the then lead tbn with Woody Herman, Gene Smith.
As far as I'm aware this is the only 500 trombone concieved from the ground up with a wider slider crook which again is aproximately that of a Bach 36. It is a shame that this instrument was launched just as Besson was about to hit the rocks in a big way and that combined with a long list of pretty dreadful Besson trombones that had proceeded it ( although there are one or two gems in amongst them) meant it never really took off.

If you ever see one listed for sale might be worth a look as they don't fetch big money, just be sure it has the wide slide with the 7.5" bell ( yellow is better) and the interchangeable lead pipes as the later ones reverted to standard width slide with an 8" bell .
The horn is similar in blow and concept to a King 'Jiggs' being fairly lighweight in constrction throughout and for my money they blow very well. I'm attaching a couple of pics which show the red bell version although as I mentioned above i think the yellow bells respond much better .
Good Luck

BellEnd

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:51 pm
by Crazy4Tbone86
This is fascinating! I saw a .500 bore Besson for sale on The Brass Exchange several months ago.....at least I think it was about that long ago. I thought the slide on that horn looked particularly wide, but I just assumed it was some kind of an optical illusion. Possibly it was the 941 model?

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:24 am
by ithinknot
bellend wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:09 am My quest to solve this conundrum eventually led me to the Besson 941 a .500 bore trombone that was designed in conjunction with the then lead tbn with Woody Herman, Gene Smith.
As far as I'm aware this is the only 500 trombone concieved from the ground up with a wider slider crook which again is aproximately that of a Bach 36. It is a shame that this instrument was launched just as Besson was about to hit the rocks in a big way and that combined with a long list of pretty dreadful Besson trombones that had proceeded it ( although there are one or two gems in amongst them) meant it never really took off.

If you ever see one listed for sale might be worth a look as they don't fetch big money, just be sure it has the wide slide with the 7.5" bell ( yellow is better) and the interchangeable lead pipes as the later ones reverted to standard width slide with an 8" bell .
I have one of the early ones and have tried to piece together some of the history. Apart from the obvious, the bell engraving tells you which version it is:

BE940-#serial#
7.5" yellow brass bell, wide slide, interchangeable leadpipes
BE941-#serial#
7.5" rose brass bell, wide slide, interchangeable leadpipes

Seems to have been introduced around 1993, available until early 1999.

940GS-#serial#
8" yellow brass bell, standard width slide, fixed leadpipe
941GS-#serial#
8" rose brass bell, standard width slide, fixed leadpipe

Available late 1999 to early 2004 (I guess production was wound down after the B&H sale to The Music Group in 2003).

Interesting that the 'GS' was only added on the later version... do we know that Gene Smith was involved from the start, or did he turn up later and persuade them to ditch the wide crook? :pant: If you know more or have any old ads I'd certainly be interested.

Anyway, nice horns... someone might choose one even if they didn't 'need' the wide slide. Acid bleed seems to have been a frequent issue, but the general build isn't bad, and I've seen far worse from Conn-Selmer world. Cross brazed bell flare like some antediluvian Conns - at least on my yellow, particularly long slide, and detachable cork barrels (the upper 'is' the slide lock, but the lower also unscrews so you can replace the bumpers without tools).

bellend wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:09 am I have found that adding more tube length into the crook even at the correct or very similar i.d. still alters things a little . Years ago when I was playing professionally I had Mick Rath make me a custom crook for my King 2B+ that was as near as damm it identical in bore but the width of a Bach 36 and although I used it for many years it never felt quite the same as with the stock crook.
It's also partly just a mass issue. A 5 or 10 gram difference distributed over a whole outer slide isn't going to be shocking, but when that change is concentrated entirely at the far end, the whole feel of the slide is quite different - not necessarily a problem, but noticeable.

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:50 am
by Matt K
Are the Shires slides the same lenth but with different croks? I was under the impression they were and that the major difference was the extra .5" or whatever for their "wide" slides. They also have "L" slides that are "Bach" length and report that the extra length gives it some extra security in the slotting. That kind of sounds like their wide description of having a little more breadth of sound or at least my experience with a "W" slide (but not an "L" slide) leaves me with.

In any case, I suspect that a wider overall slide could be countered by pushing the tuning slide in more than usual (or perhaps even cutting by a commensurate length) and adjusting a leadpipe to something that is a little more "centered".

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:41 am
by bellend

Interesting that the 'GS' was only added on the later version... do we know that Gene Smith was involved from the start, or did he turn up later and persuade them to ditch the wide crook? :pant: If you know more or have any old ads I'd certainly be interested.
Quite some time ago I actually contacted Gene Smith about these horns but unfortunately my memory of the discussion is a little hazy. I do remember discussing the leadpipes and he definately expressed an oppinion as to which was his favourite which means he was involved with designing and playing playing the first incarnation . Looking at a video of him playing with Woody he has had the gooseneck on his King bent to change angle the bell and slide which is also present on the 940. He also holds the horn in a plane that would suggest a wide slide would be more comfortable.

Here's the video in question.

Gene plays a feature at around the 9.30 mark


BellEnd

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:50 am
by bellend
Here's another clip of Gene with Woddy's band where if I'm not mistken he is actually playing a Bessson 940
He takes a solo in the first number.



BellEnd

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:13 pm
by ithinknot
bellend wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:50 am Here's another clip of Gene with Woddy's band where if I'm not mistken he is actually playing a Bessson 940
He takes a solo in the first number.
Thanks for these! I see what you mean - the wide slide would definitely make sense for him.

In the second video, the slide colors look right, but on a closer look it's a 100H (or, given the date, maybe a real Minick). Cork barrels are cylindrical and you see the characteristic rear braces at the end of the solo, around 3:49

bellend wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:41 am Quite some time ago I actually contacted Gene Smith about these horns but unfortunately my memory of the discussion is a little hazy. I do remember discussing the leadpipes and he definately expressed an oppinion as to which was his favourite which means he was involved with designing and playing playing the first incarnation .
Which one do you prefer? For the reader... there are three, varying lengths, all with the same rather large venturi. The longest seems by far the best to me. FWIW, a Yamaha 354 pipe also works well. Gives a punchier feel (but not as tight as a Jiggs) that reminds me a bit of a 2B+.

Re: Yamaha 356 crook

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:53 pm
by bellend
The numbers had rubed off the lead pipes on mine so I don't know which one it is, al I can say is not the short one.

Interesting what you say about the Yamaha pipe I'll maybe try and get one to try.

Having had annother look at the video, I think you're right abot the Minick ( don't think it's a Conn as the bell looks like 7.5"

BellEnd