Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

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imsevimse
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by imsevimse »

elmsandr wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:33 pm Man, this ain’t that bad…. With this recording, even a good band would sound terrible.

Sure, there’s some intonation troubles…

To be honest this do sound bad but what is good is all the other things. The cheerleaders are good. The band looks okay. Mics are on but only a few instruments are picked up (strange). I would not blame the kids. I have been a music teacher for 13 years I know students sound like that at certain points as they learn. To me the contrast is what makes it funny. Everything looks so good and then the music is not... well not as expected. That's what makes this funny. Here we would never do this. No band here will ever have all those other things in place and then sound like that. Not going to happen here :wink:
Oh, no I dont blame the kids for this, it is not their fault. I hope they keep playing so they will learn eventually. I once sounded like that too and then I had to go practice in the basement and my father got a headache.

/Tom
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robcat2075
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by robcat2075 »

elmsandr wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:33 pm They aren’t the worst by a mile…. Go find one of the bands of kids that aren’t trying and don’t want to be there.
I'm sure they are not the worst, but that would go to my original thesis in this...
robcat2075 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:02 pm
imsevimse wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:13 pm I thought all the school bands you have in U.S would guarantee both audience and musicians for wind bands?
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.

They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.
Still, being not the worst doesn't make them good. It's not the fault of the stadium or the weather or the microphones... there are endless videos on Youtube of better bands performing in similar circumstances and... sounding better.

They're trying and having fun? If that's all the school music program is, then it's not worth funding.

But I don't think they are trying very hard. A show like this is something a band practices every day and performs every Friday night at the school football games. Many weeks of not trying very hard has gotten them to a weak performance like this.

The adults in the room have failed them for allowing this to persist.
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atopper333
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by atopper333 »

harrisonreed wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:39 pm Don't bag on the kids. They are doing their best.
Well, didn’t want it to seem as if I was bagging on the kids at all. That would not be my intent. They are doing their best with what they are given.

In my case, this would be the normal sound in the area live sans recording equipment. This is most likely little to do with talent or will and more to do with budget cuts to feeder programs and lack of qualified or experienced educators…

This is more my mortification with the school system in America. We always see cuts to the arts programs first, as we all know already, which completely deprives the band from any support to help out with night practices, techs to come in and assist with playing/marching…equipment…

Why help out the band when you want to get the sports programs new practice equipment and fancy new uniforms every year. I wouldn’t bag on them for buying the helmets pads, etc…after all, that is safety equipment.

As for this, it’s just sad to see because I know these kids are doing their best. It just seems in most cases our bands have absolutely no support from our schools in the form of funding for equipment/instruction.

My high school band used to do our State’s high grade of Superior most years prior to my attendance. At that time they would do two 3 hour night practices a week during marching season. When I went we got a mixed bag of superiors and excellent after dropping to one night practice a week due to budget cuts and the such and it showed.

This doesn’t even take into effect the current inflation and other economic concerns plaguing our communities.

It’s a much deeper problem and my original comment was meant to be way more complex then ‘making fun of the children.’ We should lift them up and support them as much as possible…I do apologize if it came across that way, definitely not the intent.
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atopper333
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by atopper333 »

robcat2075 wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:09 pm
elmsandr wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:33 pm They aren’t the worst by a mile…. Go find one of the bands of kids that aren’t trying and don’t want to be there.
I'm sure they are not the worst, but that would go to my original thesis in this...
robcat2075 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:02 pm
Problem is... most of them are awful. Something only a parent could love.

They aren't building a fan base for that sort of music.
Still, being not the worst doesn't make them good. It's not the fault of the stadium or the weather or the microphones... there are endless videos on Youtube of better bands performing in similar circumstances and... sounding better.

They're trying and having fun? If that's all the school music program is, then it's not worth funding.

But I don't think they are trying very hard. A show like this is something a band practices every day and performs every Friday night at the school football games. Many weeks of not trying very hard has gotten them to a weak performance like this.

The adults in the room have failed them for allowing this to persist.
I do agree with this as well. Where does the fun end and the discipline begin? Also, when do we become realistic in applicable cases, and tell the children they don’t sound well when they don’t? When do we start holding them back from reality for the sake of not hurting their feelings?
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WilliamLang
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by WilliamLang »

yikes...

the people that have fun, good or not, and take away nice memories of their time playing music are more likely to go to concerts and fund the arts down the road.

edit: i'll add - there's already too many musicians for the amount of jobs everyday. we don't harp on high school english students for not writing novels, and we shouldn't expect everyone that picks up an instrument to have to be pushed to be good. education should be opening doors for kids, and letting them decide where to place their intentions and effort.
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atopper333
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by atopper333 »

WilliamLang wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:18 pm yikes...

the people that have fun, good or not, and take away nice memories of their time playing music are more likely to go to concerts and fund the arts down the road.

edit: i'll add - there's already too many musicians for the amount of jobs everyday. we don't harp on high school english students for not writing novels, and we shouldn't expect everyone that picks up an instrument to have to be pushed to be good. education should be opening doors for kids, and letting them decide where to place their intentions and effort.
It’s not about being pushed to be great. There should be a balance of the two. On the realistic side, if you send your high school bands to junior highs to recruit, and they sound good…again, doesn’t have to be great, but at least good, will this not encourage more people to join a band on the junior high level?

Is the novel an expectation in an English class? Or is being able to communicate a well formed idea in the form of writing or the ability to read and understand what is written the goal? Hence why there is a minimal standard.

How does one encourage interest in a band on a junior high level with a high school band that sounds horrible? Would it not be the similar showing up to a job interview looking disheveled? Or if you show up to a job interview and the manager that you interview with is disorganized and the work environment poor…does that make you want to work there or stay at that particular place?

It’s not about making professional musicians out of every child, it’s about keeping them interested enough to join to get those fun experiences. If my band is horrible, and it’s already ‘not cool’ to be in the band where I live…then why should I join to make it better.

Don’t get me wrong, fun is important…but there has to be more to it…
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robcat2075
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by robcat2075 »

I'm doubtful that many kids would be harmed or come out with bad memories by being pushed to be good.

Greatness
is hard to come by but being better is within most kids' natural ability. The levers to push them are rarely exercised, however.

They ARE going to spend time getting better at something. The adults in their lives can make some decisions about whether that time is spent on math or the trombone or... "Grand Theft Auto 12".
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WilliamLang
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by WilliamLang »

they're kids. let them have fun, the world is going to be hard enough for them.

how they're sounding on an instrument in middle school has nothing to do with their potential as a hypothetical future job interview. this is just making up straw men to say "things were better back when, when kids couldn't play video games and were ok being pushed."

trust me, society pushes kids enough. they all know the road ahead is going to be harder for them then it was for their parents. i'm amazed at their strength at every school i go to - "good" or "bad".

this idea that kids can't focus, or that parents aren't involved, or that the standards are lacking in this generation, is a fairy tale, and has been repeated throughout history without ever being true.
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atopper333
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by atopper333 »

WilliamLang wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:17 pm they're kids. let them have fun, the world is going to be hard enough for them.

how they're sounding on an instrument in middle school has nothing to do with their potential as a hypothetical future job interview. this is just making up straw men to say "things were better back when, when kids couldn't play video games and were ok being pushed."

trust me, society pushes kids enough. they all know the road ahead is going to be harder for them then it was for their parents. i'm amazed at their strength at every school i go to - "good" or "bad".

this idea that kids can't focus, or that parents aren't involved, or that the standards are lacking in this generation, is a fairy tale, and has been repeated throughout history without ever being true.
My comment was not about how they are sounding in junior high…it’s about getting them through the band room door in the first place. The comment was based in recruiting not how mentioned in your response.

A straw man argument is introducing an element to an argument which doesn’t have anything to do with that argument. In this specific case, my comment was about high school bands being used to recruit junior high students to join hence the example of a job interview…

Sure, the world is going to be hard place for them, but shielding them from reality and letting them be kids for the sake of being kids creates unrealistic expectations.

Im not saying things were better ‘back in my day.’ I will say this…straddling the line between pre and post no child left behind act illustrated a night and day difference in schooling.

The idea that they can focus in a similar way as the previous generation is a fairy tale. I’ll use an example…again an example not a straw man argument, look at how information is passed these days. When the average YouTube video is a fraction of the time of a television show and the average time it takes a young teen/preteen to swipe left to the next thing on their feed is seconds…tell me how society is teaching them to focus.

Again, this is not to downplay or minimize what children are going through now…and I am a product of the previous generation doing exactly what you are suggesting, but to believe that this current generation will have the same attributes as any of the previous is a fairy tale as well. They will not have the same skills we had, they will focus different, and pointing this out is not out of line…they just develop different skills to survive in a changing world…which illustrates the context of this post. Band rooms are becoming more empty due to a changing environment, and to reduce the changes in society that are evident as a fairy tale is short sighted.
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elmsandr
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by elmsandr »

Again, any recording like this where you can only hear one instrument at a time that the camera (and microphone) is directly pointed at.... even a good band will sound bad. Recording outside with the wrong equipment is terrible.

This probably didn't sound great live, but it probably sounded fine. There are a few folks badly out of tune, that'll happen in all sorts of ways outside.

For all of you wanting them to sound "better"... realize that could be very relative to where they started. Do we know that these kids have been playing for years? or did they just start? Does your opinion and response change based on that information?

Weird to contrast that the topic here is nobody coming to concerts and then bagging on the potential audience for said concerts. There's plenty to build on in that video. I'd even argue that fixing the intonation isn't the biggest issue to make it better/more entertaining.

Cheers,
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patrickosmith
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by patrickosmith »

It is indeed a challenge to find a way to attract the general public to live classical music concerts. This is a sad and nearly hopeless situation.

As an organizer/promoter of classical brass concerts I have had a very difficult time in bringing a paying audience for very moderately priced events with professional grade musicians and world class repertoire and concerts halls. It is very difficult to get the general public to get of their arse to do anything (let alone hear a classical music concert).

Yet I've also noticed that nearly every middle school band concert has all of the seats filled.

My conclusion is that any event that endeavors to attract the general public must have a personal connection. For example, in the middle school band concert scenario "little Johnny playing the whatever" has at least one or two adult family members (often two parents, two grandparents and some siblings). Even with the local schools now resorting to charging admission for these events to bolster their budget. Nearly sold out every time.

But just try to get the public to go hear professional grade brass players from across North America and livestreamed to the world at a world-class concert hall.

This year's "Afternoon of Brass #1" included some great music ... Mahler #2 finale (11 minute version) and John Williams "Hymn to the Fallen" both with brass and chorus ... Dukas "Fanfare from La Peri" with professional brass from across North America ... https://youtu.be/76GMgeOJCcg ... and many more great selections. Did the general public care to attend? No. Difficult situation indeed.

I'm all ears on how to sell/market next year's "Afternoon of Brass #2" to the general public. https://ab2nbe.eventbrite.com/
Bach5G
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by Bach5G »

I posted above about the local symph’s upcoming season. Harry Potter etc. Meh.

Meanwhile, the local pro opera has announced its 2022-2023 season (the first since COVID): Pearl Fishers, Midsummer Night’s Dream, Flying Dutchman. I’m definitely interested. A little pricey though.
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by bwilliams »

patrickosmith wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:58 am
My conclusion is that any event that endeavors to attract the general public must have a personal connection. For example, in the middle school band concert scenario "little Johnny playing the whatever" has at least one or two adult family members (often two parents, two grandparents and some siblings). Even with the local schools now resorting to charging admission for these events to bolster their budget. Nearly sold out every time.
This!!!!
:good:
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by pmeiden »

I’ve been very lucky to be associated with a few concert bands over my career (HS through non-music university, and business life). I live in suburban NYC, and every summer there’s a summer parks band in Scarsdale NY. The Westchester Band (founded 1969) plays 8 concerts a summer (rehearse Monday play Thursday) and currently numbers about 75 members - core are music teachers and local pros / semi pros, augmented by community members and local students. Concerts draw 250 or so in audience - its in a park, the adjacent street is closed, local delis and restaurants are open. It’s a great night of light classics, marches, show tunes, mystery tune with prizes, etc. Most of the kids in the band go on to major in something other than music, but most keep playing in their university wind ensembles, college town community bands, etc. For many who grew up playing and hearing live music, it is a place where the next generation is engaged, meet people who may or may not music for a living, and realize it OK to play well but do something else. And then they stay with it.

(not) Random example of 1. My daughter played volleyball, basketball and trumpet - all quite well - through HS. She played with me in the band mentioned above as well as its winter iteration. She played basketball and majored in geophysics at Caltech, and played trumpet in the Caltech/Oxy concert band, and Caltech’s commencement brass ensemble. She’s now at Cornell in a PhD program, and is playing tonight with the Ithaca Concert Band. I tend to think the ensemble playing she was exposed to in HS had an impact on sustaining her interest.
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by robcat2075 »

The argument that they don't need to do well because none of it is important for real life anyway will make for difficulty later when you have to explain why this band thing should be in the tax-payer funded public school curriculum at all.

There are other things that they should do well and will be important in real life. Maybe the funding should go to those? What school board member would not wonder about that?
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by afugate »

Yep, don't bag on the kids. Who knows where they've started and how much work they put in to get where they are. I've worked with some of our local school bands, where they've had revolving band directors - a new one every year. No private lesson teachers. Often, the director du jour has just basic understanding of anything besides their principal instrument.

And yet these kids keep plugging away! :good:

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bellend
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by bellend »

Just to add my tuppence worth, maybe more kids would be inspired to play if they felt more of a conection to the music being played by the ensemble :idk:
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it



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patrickosmith
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by patrickosmith »

bellend wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:14 am Just to add my tuppence worth, maybe more kids would be inspired to play if they felt more of a conection to the music being played by the ensemble :idk:
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it



BellEnd
It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.

This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by Fidbone »

patrickosmith wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:54 am
bellend wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:14 am Just to add my tuppence worth, maybe more kids would be inspired to play if they felt more of a conection to the music being played by the ensemble :idk:
Check out this band called MEUTE the crowd are certainly digging it



BellEnd
It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.

This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?
One of my best German friends plays in Meute (the trombonist on this video) and I can tell you they pack out venues wherever they play.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:
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bellend
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by bellend »

Fidbone wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:22 am
patrickosmith wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:54 am

It's one thing to inspire kids to play. It's an entirely different and more challenging thing altogether to get an audience to pay money to listen to a performance.

This was interesting and fun listening. But, I'm guessing no one in the audience actually paid money to see this performance. It's probably an audience of convenience (they happen to be there for something). True?
One of my best German friends plays in Meute (the trombonist on this video) and I can tell you they pack out venues wherever they play.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:

That's great to hear ! Certainly a different take on things

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patrickosmith
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by patrickosmith »

Fidbone wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:22 am One of my best German friends plays in Meute (the trombonist on this video) and I can tell you they pack out venues wherever they play.
They have had quite an extensive world touring schedule.
They have also been in the German charts! :clever:
That is indeed inspiring.
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by hornado »

I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.

I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.
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patrickosmith
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by patrickosmith »

hornsolo wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:23 pm I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.

I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.
I just checked out your FB page for The Elsewhen Orchestra. Interesting/compelling description.

What the backstory on the name (Elsewhen)?
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by Bach5G »

hornsolo wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:23 pm I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.

I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.
Source for video game repertoire?
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hornado
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by hornado »

Bach5G wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:41 pm
hornsolo wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:23 pm I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.

I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.
Source for video game repertoire?
It's difficult. Very little has been officially published. VGO Score on youtube has been the best source. The Musescore community sometimes, but can require editing. If all else fails we have someone who can arrange. Of course this will be much more complicated for a paid group.

You can get Austin Wintory's music directly from him/his website.
Last edited by hornado on Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Changing public tastes? Age-out problem?

Post by hornado »

patrickosmith wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:49 pm
hornsolo wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:23 pm I formed a volunteer orchestra 6 years ago and found players for all wind positions easily. Strings are a bit harder in the South but we've managed. We only do one free concert a year at the moment. We play mostly video game and film repertoire with one or two "classical" pieces mixed in. Every year we've managed to get 500-700 very enthusiastic age diverse people to come out and attend. I put decent effort into branding and use Eventbrite to track potential attendance. Advertise on facebook/instagram and put out posters.

I've been thinking of spinning off a big band in the same vein.
I just checked out your FB page for The Elsewhen Orchestra. Interesting/compelling description.

What the backstory on the name (Elsewhen)?
I just wanted a name that has some scifi/fantasy connection without being too on the nose or inappropriate for more traditional repertoire. I stumbled upon it as a term used in earlier scifi writing to describe another point time.
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